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Jimbo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 3:47am
Originally posted by Papa Lazarou Papa Lazarou wrote:

^Then take umbridge with our current standards of ethics and testing laws and regulations and restrictions - not the companies.


I'm not taking umbrage with anyone, PL. I just disagree with the notion that it's not the business of drug companies to care about the people who use their products.

Great news guys.... With the Air Hawk, flat balls are no longer a problem!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Papa Lazarou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 4:33am
I say they do as much as any other company cares about consumers. But if there IS a discrepancy in their "car" I'd say it's far more likely due to the things I mentioned. Putting out a product where it still requires an 11-14 year monitoring process is far more due to the financial strain the repressive ethical standards put those companies under. Even so, it's VERY easy to prove that no company just randomly discovers a compound and starts selling it two weeks later without researching it enough. It's a hugely laborious process to get it to "release-ready" stages/

As for the point some other posters mentioned about "May cause death", this doesn't always actually have any truth to it. It's yet again one of the restrictions. During the testing phases, there's a certain percentage of animal subjects that can die during the testing process before the compound gets labelled as "may cause death". This doesn't relate solely to the tested product, but any death where the product itself cannot be certainly said to not have played a part (which is hard to do). Similarly, anything human subjects experience during the testing processes can be listed as a side-effect, if it is NOT able to be totally discredited as having anything to do with the product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the raytownian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Expecting Merck to care about our health is like expecting the supermarket to care that we're out of bread and milk.  They're businesses.  They're not there to care; they're there to fulfill a need and to make profits.
 


See, that's what I'm on about. I don't expect Merck to care, I just feel insulted that they pretend to care. I'd really prefer it if all drug/pharma companies pushed facts and figures to make their points, and not a bunch of manipulative soap opera BS.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aka ron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 6:26pm
Did I ever mention how much I hate Geico?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by the raytownian the raytownian wrote:

Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Expecting Merck to care about our health is like expecting the supermarket to care that we're out of bread and milk.  They're businesses.  They're not there to care; they're there to fulfill a need and to make profits.


See, that's what I'm on about. I don't expect Merck to care, I just feel insulted that they pretend to care. I'd really prefer it if all drug/pharma companies pushed facts and figures to make their points, and not a bunch of manipulative soap opera BS.


I think my initial response to Thor's comment was misconstrued by some.

I was not bashing the pharma companies, nor did I mean to imply that they DON'T care. They are after all, ran by humans, most of whom must have some level of human compassion. I also was not suggesting that they take a personal interest in every case and every patient who is prescribed their product and get weepy when things don't work out well for some of them.

The only point I was trying to make, was that if they are going to be involved in the production of these products that are supposed to cure and heal sick and injured people, they really ought to have a CARING ATTITUDE about people in general and for the users of their product as a group.

Thor's comment seemed to suggest that the people who run these companies should take the attitude of "Fück these people and their problems. We couldn't give a sh*t about anything other than getting our products on the market and making a ton of money".

That might be acceptable in some industries where people's lives and health are not part of the bottom line, but if you're in the business of producing products meant to improve the lives and health of the people who use them, you ought to at least care about them as a whole.

Or at least *I* think so.


Great news guys.... With the Air Hawk, flat balls are no longer a problem!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by Jimbo Jimbo wrote:



Thor's comment seemed to suggest that the people who run these companies should take the attitude of "Fück these people and their problems. We couldn't give a sh*t about anything other than getting our products on the market and making a ton of money".



It's a corporation and, as such, does not have feelings, negative or positive.  There may be a PR person whose job it is to make it sound like the corporation has this heartfelt concern for people's health but it's still a non-human entity.
 
But if you're talking about the people who run the corporation---well, people are there to do their jobs.  The CEOs and CFOs and COOs care insofar as the drugs they come up with are successful.  And really, isn't that more "caring" than some platitudes that come out of a PR person's mouth?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

It's a corporation and, as such, does not have feelings, negative or positive.  There may be a PR person whose job it is to make it sound like the corporation has this heartfelt concern for people's health but it's still a non-human entity.

But if you're talking about the people who run the corporation---well, people are there to do their jobs.  The CEOs and CFOs and COOs care insofar as the drugs they come up with are successful.  And really, isn't that more "caring" than some platitudes that come out of a PR person's mouth?


I think we're still not quite on the same page here.

You say a corporation ("it") is a non-human entity. I suppose that depends upon how you look at a corporation. If you see a corporation as nothing more than a collection of contractual legalities and words on documents filed with the proper governing authorities, then I suppose that is true. But if you see a corporation as a group of people working together, providing some product or service to people or other businesses, then it is very much a human entity.

I see it the second way. And when a corporation is involved in something like producing medication, I think it's downright dangerous for the people who run it to not care about the people who use their products. If they don't care about the people who are using their medications, what are the chances that they might try to cut corners, fudge test results, withhold data that might make it harder to get their products approved by the FDA, etc.

I think that caring about people is of paramount importance in this industry above all others.

Great news guys.... With the Air Hawk, flat balls are no longer a problem!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Papa Lazarou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by the raytownian the raytownian wrote:

Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Expecting Merck to care about our health is like expecting the supermarket to care that we're out of bread and milk.  They're businesses.  They're not there to care; they're there to fulfill a need and to make profits.
 


See, that's what I'm on about. I don't expect Merck to care, I just feel insulted that they pretend to care. I'd really prefer it if all drug/pharma companies pushed facts and figures to make their points, and not a bunch of manipulative soap opera BS.
I'd love that, myself, but I think an important issue is that they want to appeal to a wide audience, and there's a specific braindead least-common-denominator out there who recoil at facts and figures and think big words are a sign of the devil....sadly, these are the people producing the most childdren
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2016 at 1:06am
Ron, that list of all the medicines you put that are now in lawsuits is really sad!:(
My name is Donathan, pronounced the same way you pronounce Jonathan, except with a D. :D $608 for her brother's scooter. Fair is fair my ass. Being tough on Public Access TV is priceless.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anduril Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2016 at 2:52am
Originally posted by Jimbo Jimbo wrote:

  (snip - in reply to Thor) 

I think we're still not quite on the same page here.

You say a corporation ("it") is a non-human entity. I suppose that depends upon how you look at a corporation. If you see a corporation as nothing more than a collection of contractual legalities and words on documents filed with the proper governing authorities, then I suppose that is true. But if you see a corporation as a group of people working together, providing some product or service to people or other businesses, then it is very much a human entity.

I see it the second way. And when a corporation is involved in something like producing medication, I think it's downright dangerous for the people who run it to not care about the people who use their products. If they don't care about the people who are using their medications, what are the chances that they might try to cut corners, fudge test results, withhold data that might make it harder to get their products approved by the FDA, etc.

I think that caring about people is of paramount importance in this industry above all others.

 
If I may...?
 
I see ALL corporations a third way:  A legal extention, and facilitator of good old fashioned GREED.
 
Having been a "C-Level" exec in a publicly traded company on the NASDAQ, I can assure you greed knows no boundaries.  The stakeholders (banks, institutional investors, VC's) are there to make money and they often don't need or care to know anything about the business.  Even the ones who say they do, A) only say that about highly successful companies, often when they've have very little to do with said success, or B) only "think" they care or know, when the reality is otherwise.
 
Seriously:  Greed knows no boundaries.
That's pretty much all you need to know. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2016 at 3:12am
Originally posted by Anduril Anduril wrote:

If I may...?
 
I see ALL corporations a third way:  A legal extention, and facilitator of good old fashioned GREED.
 
Having been a "C-Level" exec in a publicly traded company on the NASDAQ, I can assure you greed knows no boundaries.  The stakeholders (banks, institutional investors, VC's) are there to make money and they often don't need or care to know anything about the business.  Even the ones who say they do, A) only say that about highly successful companies, often when they've have very little to do with said success, or B) only "think" they care or know, when the reality is otherwise.
 
Seriously:  Greed knows no boundaries.
That's pretty much all you need to know. 



You certainly may, and I have no reason to doubt you, though I was/am willing to give any one of them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm just speaking in terms of how it oughtta be.

Assuming what you say is also true of big pharma, then it's no wonder there is a cancer drug on the market that extends life by only a few months and costs over $100k per dose.





Great news guys.... With the Air Hawk, flat balls are no longer a problem!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaWolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2016 at 4:36am
Originally posted by Anduril Anduril wrote:

Originally posted by Jimbo Jimbo wrote:

  (snip - in reply to Thor) 

I think we're still not quite on the same page here.

You say a corporation ("it") is a non-human entity. I suppose that depends upon how you look at a corporation. If you see a corporation as nothing more than a collection of contractual legalities and words on documents filed with the proper governing authorities, then I suppose that is true. But if you see a corporation as a group of people working together, providing some product or service to people or other businesses, then it is very much a human entity.

I see it the second way. And when a corporation is involved in something like producing medication, I think it's downright dangerous for the people who run it to not care about the people who use their products. If they don't care about the people who are using their medications, what are the chances that they might try to cut corners, fudge test results, withhold data that might make it harder to get their products approved by the FDA, etc.

I think that caring about people is of paramount importance in this industry above all others.

 
If I may...?
 
I see ALL corporations a third way:  A legal extention, and facilitator of good old fashioned GREED.
 
Having been a "C-Level" exec in a publicly traded company on the NASDAQ, I can assure you greed knows no boundaries.  The stakeholders (banks, institutional investors, VC's) are there to make money and they often don't need or care to know anything about the business.  Even the ones who say they do, A) only say that about highly successful companies, often when they've have very little to do with said success, or B) only "think" they care or know, when the reality is otherwise.
 
Seriously:  Greed knows no boundaries.
That's pretty much all you need to know. 
Well said, true...but, about 7/8 of a cigar.
The non-execs also need to understand and see the signs of the horrific 'can we still be friends?'-side of greed:
"Please understand this is nothing personal - it's a 'business decision'..."
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgtrock21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2016 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Originally posted by Jimbo Jimbo wrote:

Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Merck "cares" to the extent that a corporate entity can "care".  Hell, it makes medicines to, presumably, make us healthier.  That's how it cares.  It doesn't have feelings.

And to expect that medication be free of side effects---well, we'd be waiting forever for that medication to be made available.  Hell, even aspirin still has side effects.

As far as profits---hell, I want them to make big profits.  The more profits, the more that goes into research and development.  I've read that it costs $1 billion to develop a new drug.


That's all beside the point.

Corporations are run by people, not robots or computers.

The people at the top who sit on the board are the corporation and they're also human beings. As such, they are expected to care about the people who put their products inside their bodies, usually at a huge financial expense.

I never suggested that they shouldn't make a profit, but that shouldn't be their number one concern, and they need to do it in such a way that they CARE enough about the people who use what they develop so that they don't start getting CAREless and sloppy, putting people's lives and health at risk.

This stone cold, unfeeling, straight line "logic" that conservatives love to employ never really holds up under the light of day.

 
 
Sorry, but it all comes down to the money.
 
 "This stone cold, unfeeling, straight line "logic" that conservatives love to employ never really holds up under the light of day." Actually I'm very relieved that Jimbo included this statement. Otherwise I would have had to ask: Who are you and what have you done with Jimbo? I like to think most of the actual researchers have humanitarian intentions but some are only seeking fame and recognition of their peers. Corporate profit generates stockholder dividends which generates more stockholders. Economics 101.Wink  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaWolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2016 at 7:14pm
^^^As I read the above exchanges, I would almost advise the naysayers to watch the 'Mr. Robot' series, simply for the office scenes and business-local government/foreign government exchanges. Very ugly and disheartening, yet typical and certainly supports the concept of existence in the name of 'greed'.
Yea, yea, yea...once upon a time I wore an 'executive' titleLOL and maybe I still do, although I like to consider myself more just an organizer/effort participant who sits and eats with anyone and everyone and someone who likes to ensure we all eat tomorrow. Mind you, to ensure this, it means, in assorted ways, I may be construed as 'greedy'.  
Then again, I'll say too many people simply take far too much for granted, that this life is free, and somebody owes them something. Yea, far too many people are seriously friggin' idiots.
A little comment & perspective on 'big pharma': 
My focus, from 1998 until 2003 was almost solely concentrating on 'big pharma' organizations that manufactured human medicines that treated anything from the base of the neck to the top of the head and their (here comes the legal term) 'Validated' automated manufacturing systems, where there is *NO* room for 'error'.
Everyone knows a medicine manufactured and marketed in the U.S. of Americo can generally be trusted to be precisely what it says. I'm not touching the topic of 'prescribed'.
Everyone knows negative reactions to medicines can lead to personal death, or personal wealth, and also feed the americanized cockroaches ambulance chasers underprivilaged, yet distinguished legal professionals ('lawyers'), who will milk any pharma organization from a penney of its life as they help ensure their clients become healthy, wealthy, yet not-so-wise. This, of course, can occur should they be able to provide relatively convincing evidence (otherwise known as 'proof') that the medicine in question was manufactured incorrectly. If lawsuits can be avoided, just the foreseeable threat of a single lawsuit can otherwise cause something almost as devistating - a 'Lot Recall' which simply put means a sh*tload of medicine is pulled off the sales shelves and destroyed (usually accomplshed under 'supervision').
Having said the above, I'll point out one anomaly about *my* experiences with the 'big pharma' industry: from janitor to research analyst to computer scientist to manufacturing professionals to warehouse workers - I have met more people with their doctorate degrees than I have met in the hospital/medical industry. It was absolutely incredible.
Having said the above, I will advise the cost of operation (including defense of) for 'big pharma' isn't even discussed within all the whining about cost of medicines - and believe me, it is sky high throu.  And yes, the most popular medicines will cost a little more because there is so much overall background noise cost for the organization, including the requirement to make a few people rich so somebody (the 'rich') will invest back into the organization, which makes everyone a little 'richer' (including all those 'Dr. Janitors'), who are really 'needed'.
Mind you, this discussion did not even begin to touch on little things like the cost of even simple change within a Validated automated manufacturing process or the annual cost of maintaining the desired and very valuable 'CE' designation for global products, much less the designations required for USA sales (such as FDA approval).  
The 'moral to the story' and the queston of 'greed' in 'big pharma'?
Required fact of life.
Live with it or die don't.
Believe me - you DO want to trust the medicine you are ingesting - especially if it for anything from the neck up.
 
 
Then there is the 'wonderful world of finance' (which is really very much as shown in 'Mr. Robot')...but I will save that for another dayLOL
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aka ron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2016 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by Donathan Donathan wrote:

Ron, that list of all the medicines you put that are now in lawsuits is really sad!:(
Donna, not that we are friends or anything...you missed my sarcasm!
 
Originally posted by aka ron aka ron wrote:

Just like Donna...the side effects are often worse than the initial illness. The Rx companies only care about profits. Death, should never be a side effect.
Just look at all of the class action lawsuits.
 
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^^^That's o.k....I'll abuse it for awhile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote commercialssuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2016 at 11:42pm
Originally posted by Anduril Anduril wrote:

Originally posted by Jimbo Jimbo wrote:

  (snip - in reply to Thor) 

I think we're still not quite on the same page here.

You say a corporation ("it") is a non-human entity. I suppose that depends upon how you look at a corporation. If you see a corporation as nothing more than a collection of contractual legalities and words on documents filed with the proper governing authorities, then I suppose that is true. But if you see a corporation as a group of people working together, providing some product or service to people or other businesses, then it is very much a human entity.

I see it the second way. And when a corporation is involved in something like producing medication, I think it's downright dangerous for the people who run it to not care about the people who use their products. If they don't care about the people who are using their medications, what are the chances that they might try to cut corners, fudge test results, withhold data that might make it harder to get their products approved by the FDA, etc.

I think that caring about people is of paramount importance in this industry above all others.

 
If I may...?
 
I see ALL corporations a third way:  A legal extention, and facilitator of good old fashioned GREED.
 
Having been a "C-Level" exec in a publicly traded company on the NASDAQ, I can assure you greed knows no boundaries.  The stakeholders (banks, institutional investors, VC's) are there to make money and they often don't need or care to know anything about the business.  Even the ones who say they do, A) only say that about highly successful companies, often when they've have very little to do with said success, or B) only "think" they care or know, when the reality is otherwise.
 
Seriously:  Greed knows no boundaries.
That's pretty much all you need to know. 


Very well said! I would NEVER make the mistake of believing that ANY company or corporation or government (which is essentially a business) has my best interests in mind and will do what is best for me. The consumer must ALWAYS be aware of what is really going on and question everything and NEVER blindly follow along assuming "just cause everyone else is doing it, it must be ok".

As Anduril said, these people ONLY care about making money/power and we as consumers have to be responsible for our own choices and do research (which nowadays is SOOO easy with the internet) on as much as possible to counter the "brainwashing" we get from TV, which is merely there to sell a product.

BTW, have any of you done any digging on Gardasil and the controversy surrounding it? I did just a little, and there is enough to make me VERY suspicious and think twice before getting this vaccine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ALE515 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2016 at 3:54pm
I don't like this commercial due to trying to make the parents feel like crap. However, isn't it our Doctors that are supposed to tell us about these things? The hows and whys. Is this commercial implying that our Doctors told us about it and we're ignoring them? My son is only a toddler, but our doctor told us what vaccines are coming up and what they do. I would expect he would continue to tell as my kid grows up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redheaded Gigi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 12:58am
Originally posted by ALE515 ALE515 wrote:

I don't like this commercial due to trying to make the parents feel like crap. However, isn't it our Doctors that are supposed to tell us about these things? The hows and whys. Is this commercial implying that our Doctors told us about it and we're ignoring them? My son is only a toddler, but our doctor told us what vaccines are coming up and what they do. I would expect he would continue to tell as my kid grows up.

Many drs. are recommending the Gardasil shots, but some parents are opting out because they see HPV as a sexually transmitted issue rather than a communicable disease like Measles, etc.  The tipping point for me was that HPV causes many oral cancers in men.  My sons' own drs. (pediatrician and specialists) have overwhelmingly recommended the vaccine and have had their own kids vaccinated.  It just irritates me that Merck runs these commercials to shame parents to give kids a vaccine that yields a ton of profits for them.  Like I said earlier, if it was the CDC doing PSAs, I wouldn't feel so irritated by it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redheaded Gigi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 1:00am
Originally posted by the raytownian the raytownian wrote:

Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Expecting Merck to care about our health is like expecting the supermarket to care that we're out of bread and milk.  They're businesses.  They're not there to care; they're there to fulfill a need and to make profits.
 


See, that's what I'm on about. I don't expect Merck to care, I just feel insulted that they pretend to care. I'd really prefer it if all drug/pharma companies pushed facts and figures to make their points, and not a bunch of manipulative soap opera BS.

That's exactly what my problem is with this ad.  It isn't as if Merck is really trying to address a public health problem and wants us to vaccinate our kids against HPV for our children's good; they're trying to manipulate parents to make money and they should just be up front about that in the ad.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 3:38am
Redheaded Gigi, welcome to CIH!:D They would never be so direct with their money grabbing attempt. They would rather take small, insidious, subtle bites of the sandwich(parent's money) rather than huge, obvious, blatant bites of the "sandwich."
My name is Donathan, pronounced the same way you pronounce Jonathan, except with a D. :D $608 for her brother's scooter. Fair is fair my ass. Being tough on Public Access TV is priceless.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redheaded Gigi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 1:17pm
Thanks for the welcome, Donathan!  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tikibagger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 12:43am
wasn't Gardasil pitched initially as a a cervical cancer precautionary shot? So why in heavens name would any parent of a MALE child of the past even have CONSIDERED subjecting them to a Gardasil shot? Thats the tearing point for me on these ads--i get the wide eyed teary female kids, but the boys probably have a less than concrete beef with their 'horrible' parents who doomed them..as a parent in the mid 90s. i recall the Gardasil push for girls but definitely no male kids warnings..am i wrong here?
Baggin the tiki since the 90s
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redheaded Gigi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 1:40am
The recommendation to vaccinate boys is, from what I understand, two-fold.  Boys can spread HPV, which causes most cervical cancers, so vaccinating boys protects girls from HPV and cervical cancer.  HPV also is implicated in many oral, anal, and penile cancers, which obviously do affect boys and men.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 1:59am
You're welcome, Redheaded Gigi! :D
My name is Donathan, pronounced the same way you pronounce Jonathan, except with a D. :D $608 for her brother's scooter. Fair is fair my ass. Being tough on Public Access TV is priceless.





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